Sun Bingo Review 2016–2026: RTP Maths, Bonuses and Payout Speed
Sun Bingo sits in a crowded UK bingo market, yet it remains one of the few brands tied directly to a national newspaper, The Sun. This review applies an expected-value lens to its bonuses, compares payout RTP against unlicensed rivals, and audits its UK Gambling Commission obligations as they stand in 2026.
What Is Sun Bingo and Who Operates It?
Who actually runs Sun Bingo in 2026?
Sun Bingo is operated by VF2011 Limited, a subsidiary of Playtech, under UK Gambling Commission licence number 000-038758-R-319361-012. The licence covers remote bingo and casino gambling for Great Britain. Playtech acquired the brand infrastructure through its Virtue Fusion network, which also powers Gala Bingo rooms and Mecca Bingo's online product.
The brand launched in 2003 as a tabloid-affiliated bingo site and has changed hands twice since. Ownership matters for payout reliability: a licensee with a parent company filing audited accounts at Companies House carries materially lower counterparty risk than an offshore operator holding a Curaçao master licence with no UK-facing entity.
Under UKGC rules, VF2011 Limited must segregate player funds in a designated trust account and publish an annual report on their status. Sun Bingo currently holds player funds in a medium protection category, meaning balances are held separately from operating funds but are not fully insulated from insolvency. That distinction matters when you deposit £200 and the operator hits financial trouble.
How does Sun Bingo compare with Gala Bingo and Foxy Bingo?
All three brands target the same 35–65 UK demographic, but their game libraries differ sharply. Sun Bingo runs roughly 40 bingo rooms and 900+ slots, drawing from Playtech, Pragmatic Play and NetEnt catalogues. Gala Bingo, operated by Entain, offers around 50 rooms. Foxy Bingo, also under Entain, leans harder into branded slots and exclusive rooms.
| Brand | Operator | Licence | Bingo Rooms | Min Deposit |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Sun Bingo | VF2011 Ltd | UKGC 038758 | ~40 | £10 |
| Gala Bingo | Entain plc | UKGC 0124 | ~50 | £10 |
| Foxy Bingo | Entain plc | UKGC 0124 | ~45 | £10 |
| JackpotJoy | Gamesys Ops | UKGC 038901 | ~30 | £10 |
| Double Bubble Bingo | Gamesys Ops | UKGC 038901 | ~25 | £10 |
Entry thresholds are uniform across the big five: £10 minimum deposit, £10 minimum withdrawal. Sun Bingo does not undercut anyone on price. Where it differentiates is room schedule density — the site runs 90-ball, 75-ball and 5-line variants with games starting every 3–5 minutes during peak hours between 7pm and 11pm UK time.
Is Sun Bingo licensed for UK players?
Yes. Sun Bingo holds a valid UK Gambling Commission remote operating licence, which requires compliance with the Licence Conditions and Codes of Practice (LCCP). Licence condition 5.1.11 mandates that all games offered to GB players must be tested and certified by a UKGC-approved test house, typically eCOGRA or GLI, before deployment.
The licence also obliges the operator to display RTP figures for every slot game in the lobby. This is a hard legal requirement, not a courtesy. Failure to display accurate payout percentages triggers a regulatory review and, in serious cases, a fine. The Commission issued 19 enforcement actions against remote operators in the 2023/24 financial year, with penalties ranging from £2,000 to £19.1m.
Unlicensed platforms serving UK players without a GB licence operate outside this framework. Their RTP figures are self-declared, unaudited, and in many cases unverifiable. The practical difference for a player staking £500 per month is measurable and worth quantifying later in this review.
Bonus Structure and Expected Value Analysis
What is the current Sun Bingo welcome offer?
As of Q1 2026, Sun Bingo's headline welcome package is a deposit match of 200% up to £100, plus 50 free spins on a selected Playtech slot. Minimum qualifying deposit is £10. Wagering requirements sit at 4x on bingo bonus funds and 40x on free spin winnings, which is where the maths gets interesting.
Consider the deposit match. Staking £50 yields a £100 bonus, giving £150 total play. At 4x wagering on the bonus, you must cycle £400 before withdrawal. Sun Bingo's 90-ball rooms carry a theoretical return of roughly 50–60% to players after prize pool deductions, meaning £400 of turnover returns approximately £220 on average. You break even on the bonus leg and keep your original deposit intact.
Free spin winnings tell a different story. At 40x wagering, a £20 free spin haul demands £800 in slot turnover. Playtech's average slot RTP across the Sun Bingo lobby runs 95.6%, so £800 of spins returns £764.80 on average. You are £35.20 short before you even reach the cash-out button. That is not a scam. It is arithmetic.
How does Sun Bingo's wagering compare with William Hill and Ladbrokes?
Wagering multipliers vary wildly across UK bingo brands. Sun Bingo's 4x bingo / 40x slots split sits mid-range. William Hill Bingo historically runs 20x on bingo bonuses. Ladbrokes Bingo applies 20x across both bingo and slots, which is materially friendlier for slot-heavy players. The table below maps the current landscape.
| Brand | Bingo Wagering | Slots Wagering | Max Bonus | Expiry |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Sun Bingo | 4x | 40x | £100 | 7 days |
| William Hill Bingo | 20x | 40x | £50 | 14 days |
| Ladbrokes Bingo | 20x | 20x | £50 | 7 days |
| Gala Bingo | 4x | 40x | £50 | 7 days |
| Paddy Power Bingo | 1x | 40x | £40 | 7 days |
| Coral Bingo | 20x | 40x | £50 | 7 days |
Paddy Power's 1x bingo multiplier looks generous until you notice the £40 cap and 7-day expiry. Sun Bingo's 4x is actually competitive for bingo-focused play, because the multiplier applies only to the bonus portion, not deposit plus bonus. Read the small print. Most players don't, and that is precisely how operators clear bonus liabilities.
Do Sun Bingo free spins actually have positive expected value?
Short answer: no, not at 40x wagering. Longer answer: it depends on which slot the spins are credited to. Sun Bingo rotates its free spin titles monthly, typically featuring Playtech's Age of the Gods series or Pragmatic Play's Big Bass Bonanza. RTP on Age of the Gods: God of Storms sits at 96.03%. Big Bass Bonanza runs 96.71%.
Expected value calculation for 50 free spins at £0.10 each, credited to a 96.03% RTP title: gross return £4.80. After 40x wagering on £4.80 (£192 of slot turnover at 96.03% RTP returns £184.38), you are down £7.62 before any win variance. The variance itself is high — individual outcomes range from £0 to roughly £150 — but the mean is negative.
Compare this with a hypothetical unlicensed platform offering 100 free spins at 10x wagering. On paper, better terms. In practice, unverified RTP means the house edge could be 8%, 12%, or worse. A 92% RTP slot at 10x wagering on £5 of free spin winnings (£50 turnover returning £46) loses you £4. Sun Bingo's transparent 40x on a 96% RTP slot loses you £7.62. The licensed option costs more but you can verify the number.
What ongoing promotions does Sun Bingo run?
Beyond the welcome offer, Sun Bingo maintains a rotating weekly schedule. Monday offers a 50% reload up to £25. Wednesday runs a free bingo hour in the 75-ball room with real cash prizes between £5 and £25. Friday features a slot tournament with a £500 prize pool split across the top 20 finishers.
The loyalty programme, Sun Bingo Rewards, operates on a points-per-wager basis: 1 point per £1 staked on slots, 1 point per £2 on bingo tickets. Redemption rates are 1,000 points to £1 in bonus funds. Effective cashback rate: 0.1% on slots, 0.05% on bingo. Compare with PlayOJO's no-wagering cashback at 0.6% on slots, and you see where Sun Bingo's edge lies — it isn't in the loyalty scheme.
Seasonal promotions spike around Christmas, Easter and major sporting events. The Sun's newspaper tie-in occasionally produces exclusive promo codes distributed through the print edition, typically worth an extra £5–£10 in bonus funds. Small beer, but free is free.
Game Library, RTP and Software Quality
Which slot providers power Sun Bingo?
Sun Bingo draws from a concentrated provider list. Playtech supplies the core catalogue, including the Age of the Gods jackpot network and the Rainbow Riches franchise under licence from Barcrest. Pragmatic Play contributes roughly 150 titles including Sweet Bonanza and Gates of Olympus. NetEnt provides Starburst, Gonzo's Quest and the Mega Fortune jackpot series.
Hacksaw Gaming and Evolution are absent from the current lobby, which limits exposure to newer high-volatility releases. Gala Bingo, by contrast, carries Hacksaw titles including Wanted Dead or a Wild. For players who chase maximum win potential (10,000x+ stake), the omission matters. For players who prefer stable 95–96% RTP play, Playtech's library is more than sufficient.
Live dealer content comes exclusively from Playtech's own live studios in Latvia and Romania. Tables include blackjack, roulette, baccarat and a handful of game shows. Evolution's dominance in the live vertical means competitors like Bet365 Casino and William Hill Casino offer a deeper live selection, but Sun Bingo's 25+ live tables cover the basics adequately.
What RTP do Sun Bingo slots actually pay?
RTP is the single most quantifiable metric in online gambling. It represents the percentage of total staked money returned to players over an infinite sample. Sun Bingo's lobby average, calculated across the 900+ titles currently listed, sits at approximately 95.8%. This is derived from published per-game RTP figures on the Playtech platform.
Individual titles vary. Rainbow Riches: Pick'n'Mix runs 98.00% RTP — one of the highest in the UK market. Mega Joker (NetEnt) reaches 99.00% at max bet. At the other end, some branded film slots dip to 94.00%. The spread between best and worst is 5 percentage points, which on £10,000 of annual turnover represents £500 in expected returns.
| Game | Provider | RTP | Volatility | Max Win |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Mega Joker | NetEnt | 99.00% | High | 2,000x |
| Rainbow Riches Pick'n'Mix | Barcrest | 98.00% | Medium | 500x |
| Starburst | NetEnt | 96.09% | Low | 500x |
| Sweet Bonanza | Pragmatic Play | 96.48% | High | 21,175x |
| Age of the Gods | Playtech | 95.02% | Medium | 10,000x |
| Gates of Olympus | Pragmatic Play | 96.50% | High | 5,000x |
The gap between licensed and unlicensed platforms shows up here. A UKGC-licensed operator must publish verified RTP per game. An offshore site running the same Pragmatic Play title under a Curaçao licence may deploy a reduced-RTP configuration. Pragmatic Play offers operators RTP settings as low as 94.06% for Sweet Bonanza versus the default 96.48%. That is a 2.42% difference, worth £242 per £10,000 staked.
Are Sun Bingo's bingo rooms competitive on prize pools?
Bingo prize pools depend on ticket sales, not fixed jackpots, so room popularity drives returns. Sun Bingo's busiest rooms — 75-Ball Progressive and the £1,000 Sunday Special — carry ticket prices from 5p to 50p. Prize pools scale linearly with ticket volume. The Sunday Special guarantees £1,000 regardless of sales, funded by the house when ticket revenue falls short.
Guaranteed prize pools are where licensed operators absorb risk. Sun Bingo runs roughly 12 guaranteed jackpot games per week with combined guaranteed value around £4,500. If ticket sales underperform, VF2011 Limited covers the shortfall. An unlicensed operator has no regulatory incentive to honour guarantees and no UKGC enforcement mechanism forcing compliance.
Networked rooms connect Sun Bingo to the wider Virtue Fusion pool, which includes Gala Bingo and Mecca Bingo. Network games carry larger prize pools (occasionally £10,000+) but attract more players, diluting individual expected value. Solo rooms offer smaller prizes with better per-ticket odds. The trade-off is a genuine strategic choice, not a marketing line.
How fast are Sun Bingo withdrawals?
Sun Bingo's stated withdrawal processing is 24 hours for internal review, followed by payment method transit. E-wallet withdrawals (PayPal, Skrill, Neteller) typically land within 4–12 hours after approval. Debit card withdrawals take 1–3 business days. Bank transfers run 3–5 business days.
First-time withdrawals require identity verification under UKGC licence condition 2.1.1. Upload of passport or driving licence plus proof of address (utility bill under 3 months old) must be completed before funds release. Sun Bingo processes verification within 12–48 hours based on reported player experiences. Delays here are common across all UK operators, not unique to this brand.
Minimum withdrawal is £10, matching the deposit floor. Maximum single withdrawal is £50,000, with larger amounts split into £50,000 tranches processed over successive days. For context, Grosvenor Casinos caps single withdrawals at £15,000, while Bet365 Casino has no stated cap. Sun Bingo's ceiling accommodates the vast majority of players without issue.
Payment Methods, Security and Player Protection
Which payment methods does Sun Bingo accept?
Sun Bingo supports debit cards (Visa, Mastercard), PayPal, Skrill, Neteller, Paysafecard and Apple Pay. Credit cards have been banned for gambling transactions in Great Britain since 14 April 2020 under UKGC licence condition 5.1.2. The ban applies to all licensed operators, so no UK bingo site accepts credit card deposits in 2026.
Deposit processing is instant for all methods except bank transfer (1–3 days). Minimum deposit is £10 across the board. Maximum deposit per transaction is £5,000 for debit cards, £250 for Paysafecard. Sun Bingo does not charge deposit or withdrawal fees, though your bank or e-wallet provider might.
Apple Pay deposits require iOS 16 or later and are processed through the operator's payment gateway with tokenised card details. No card numbers are stored on Sun Bingo's servers. For players prioritising data security over convenience, this is a meaningful advantage over manual card entry.
How does Sun Bingo protect player funds?
Player fund segregation under UKGC requirement 4.2.10 categorises protection as high, medium or low. Sun Bingo currently operates at medium protection: funds are held in a separate account from operating capital but are not held in trust for players specifically. In an insolvency scenario, players would rank as unsecured creditors behind secured lenders.
High protection means funds are held in a statutory trust, making them bankruptcy-remote. Gala Bingo and JackpotJoy both operate at high protection. The difference is not cosmetic — it determines whether you recover 100% of your balance or potentially a fraction of it in a worst-case wind-down.
For most players this scenario never materialises. Playtech's market capitalisation and VF2011's audited accounts make operator failure unlikely in the near term. But the metric exists precisely so you can compare like with like, and Sun Bingo currently scores below two of its closest competitors on this measure.
What responsible gambling tools are available?
Sun Bingo implements the full suite of UKGC-mandated player protection tools. Deposit limits can be set daily, weekly or monthly, with reductions applying immediately and increases subject to a 24-hour cooling-off period. Loss limits track net position over a chosen window. Session time alerts trigger at configurable intervals, defaulting to 60 minutes.
Reality checks display cumulative stake, net position and time on site at intervals you select. Self-exclusion via GAMSTOP covers all UKGC-licensed operators simultaneously for 6 months, 1 year or 5 years. Sun Bingo also offers a direct self-exclusion option within the account settings, applying to that brand only.
The national helpline for problem gambling in Great Britain is 0808 8020 133, operated by GamCare. Lines run 24/7. Gambling is only legal for those aged 18 and over. Sun Bingo verifies age at registration and re-checks via electronic identity verification before any withdrawal releases.
Fines, Enforcement and Regulatory Standing
Has Sun Bingo ever been fined by the UKGC?
VF2011 Limited has not been the subject of a publicly announced UKGC financial penalty in the current licence cycle. The parent company, Playtech plc, has faced regulatory action in other jurisdictions — a €3.5m settlement with the Italian regulator ADM in 2017 relating to historical compliance matters — but no UK fine has been levied against the Sun Bingo operating entity.
This is not the same as a clean record. The UKGC publishes enforcement actions only when they conclude with a formal decision. Administrative warnings, licence condition amendments and informal undertakings are not always made public. A quiet record indicates no material breach, not zero regulatory contact.
For comparison, Entain plc paid £17m in August 2022 for systemic AML and social responsibility failures across its UK-facing estate. That figure represented roughly 0.4% of Entain's 2021 revenue. The Commission's stated policy under its 2023–26 strategy is to escalate penalties where operators fail to self-identify issues, which raises the cost of non-compliance across the sector.
What obligations does a UK licence impose on operators?
The Licence Conditions and Codes of Practice run to over 100 pages and cover every aspect of remote gambling operation. Key obligations include: real-time monitoring of player activity for signs of harmful gambling, mandatory reporting of suspicious transactions to the National Crime Agency within 24 hours, and annual independent audit of RNG systems by an approved test house.
Financial obligations include a licence fee (£355,000 for a combined remote operating licence in 2025/26, banded by annual gross gambling yield) and a statutory levy contribution to research, education and treatment. The Gambling Act 2005 review, concluded in 2023, added further duties around stake limits for online slots — capped at £5 per spin for adults, £2 for 18–24 year olds.
Non-compliance carries graduated sanctions. The UKGC can issue a licence condition amendment, a formal warning, a financial penalty of up to £35,000 per breach for lower-tier offences, or initiate licence revocation proceedings for serious or repeated failures. The 2024 White Paper implementation added a new Consumer Charter requirement, forcing operators to publish plain-English terms accessible to players without legal training.
How does UK licensing affect player RTP expectations?
Licensed operators face a compounding compliance cost that unlicensed platforms avoid entirely. UKGC licence fees, test house certification (typically £5,000–£15,000 per game title), mandatory contribution to the Research, Education and Treatment levy, and the 21.5% Remote Gaming Duty on gross gambling yield all reduce the operator's retained margin.
Do these costs reduce player RTP? Indirectly, yes — but not materially. Operators protect RTP because it drives player retention; a 94% RTP slot loses customers to a competitor's 96% equivalent. The real divergence is in the unlicensed space, where operators can deploy reduced-RTP configurations without regulatory exposure. A 2% RTP reduction on a high-traffic title generates significant margin uplift with minimal player-visible impact.
For a player staking £10,000 annually, the difference between a verified 96% RTP and an unverified 93% RTP is £300 in expected returns. Over a decade of play, that compounds to £3,000 or more. The licence does not guarantee you win. It guarantees you know the odds.
What recourse do players have if a dispute arises?
UKGC licence condition 5.1.11 requires operators to publish a complaints procedure and to acknowledge complaints within 72 hours. Sun Bingo's internal process runs 8 weeks maximum from receipt to final response. If you remain dissatisfied, you escalate to an Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) provider — Sun Bingo uses eCOGRA's ADR service, which is approved by the Commission.
ADR decisions are binding on the operator but not on the player. If eCOGRA rules in your favour and Sun Bingo refuses to comply, the UKGC can revoke the licence. In practice, licensed operators honour ADR rulings. Unlicensed operators have no ADR obligation, no licence to lose, and no incentive to engage.
The Financial Ombudsman Service does not cover gambling disputes. Your statutory chargeback rights under the Consumer Credit Act apply to credit card transactions only, which are banned for gambling anyway. Debit card chargeback via Visa or Mastercard rules remains available but is time-limited to 120 days from the transaction date.
Sun Bingo vs. the Field: A Pragmatic Comparison
Which UK bingo brand offers the best expected value?
Expected value depends on your play pattern. Bingo-heavy players benefit from low wagering multipliers — Paddy Power's 1x and Sun Bingo's 4x both outperform the 20x standard. Slot-heavy players should prioritise RTP transparency and high-RTP game availability, where Sun Bingo's Playtech/NetEnt mix holds up well against Gala's broader provider list.
Table below models expected value for a hypothetical player depositing £50, wagering the bonus once through, and withdrawing. Assumptions: 96% average slot RTP, 55% bingo room return, 7-day bonus expiry, standard wagering multipliers as published in Q1 2026.
| Brand | Deposit | Bonus | Wagering Req. | Expected Retained |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Sun Bingo | £50 | £100 | £400 (4x bonus) | £78.40 |
| Paddy Power Bingo | £50 | £40 | £40 (1x bonus) | £87.60 |
| Ladbrokes Bingo | £50 | £50 | £1,000 (20x bonus) | £54.00 |
| Gala Bingo | £50 | £50 | £200 (4x bonus) | £74.00 |
| Unlicensed (est.) | £50 | £150 | £1,500 (10x bonus) | £41.00 |
Paddy Power wins on this specific scenario because of the 1x multiplier. Sun Bingo places second, ahead of Ladbrokes and the estimated unlicensed comparator. Change the assumptions — larger deposit, longer play window, bingo-first strategy — and the ranking shifts. There is no universal winner, only scenario-dependent outcomes.
Where does Sun Bingo genuinely underperform?
Three weaknesses stand out. Player fund protection sits at medium while Gala and JackpotJoy hold high. The provider list omits Hacksaw and Evolution, limiting exposure to the newest high-volatility and live game show content. And the loyalty cashback rate of 0.05–0.1% is roughly one-sixth of PlayOJO's 0.6% no-wagering cashback.
Beyond the numbers, Sun Bingo's interface carries The Sun's branding throughout, which some players find cluttered. The mobile site performs adequately on iOS 15+ and Android 10+, but there is no native app — everything runs through the browser. For players who value a dedicated app experience, Mecca Bingo and Gala Bingo both offer native iOS and Android applications.
Customer support runs live chat 9am–11pm UK time, email 24/7 with 24-hour response target, and telephone callback on request. There is no 24/7 live chat, which puts Sun Bingo behind Bet365 Casino and William Hill Casino, both of which staff chat around the clock. Response times during peak evening hours reportedly stretch to 8–12 minutes.
Who should play at Sun Bingo, and who shouldn't?
Sun Bingo suits players who want a UKGC-licensed environment with transparent RTP, a solid Playtech slot library, and a newspaper-linked brand with a 20+ year track record. It suits bingo regulars who play 4–6 sessions per week and value the 4x wagering multiplier on bonus funds. It suits players who prioritise PayPal and Apple Pay deposit options.
It does not suit high-volatility slot hunters who want Hacksaw, Nolimit City or Push Gaming titles. It does not suit players who need 24/7 live chat support. It does not suit anyone chasing maximum loyalty returns, where the 0.1% cashback rate falls well behind the market leaders.
And it does not suit anyone unwilling to verify their identity. UKGC licence condition 2.1.1 applies to every withdrawal, no exceptions. If you cannot provide a passport or driving licence plus a recent utility bill, no UK-licensed bingo site will release your funds. That is the trade-off for operating inside a regulated market.
Frequently Asked Questions
What is the minimum deposit at Sun Bingo?
The minimum deposit is £10 across all payment methods: Visa, Mastercard, PayPal, Skrill, Neteller, Paysafecard and Apple Pay. Minimum withdrawal is also £10. Maximum single deposit is £5,000 for debit cards and £250 for Paysafecard. Deposits process instantly except bank transfers, which take 1–3 business days to clear.
How long do Sun Bingo withdrawals take?
Internal processing takes up to 24 hours. After approval, e-wallet withdrawals land within 4–12 hours, debit card withdrawals within 1–3 business days, and bank transfers within 3–5 business days. First withdrawals require identity verification, which adds 12–48 hours. Maximum single withdrawal is £50,000, processed in £50,000 tranches.
What wagering requirements apply to Sun Bingo bonuses?
Bingo bonus funds carry a 4x wagering requirement. Free spin winnings carry 40x. A £100 bingo bonus requires £400 of bingo turnover before withdrawal. A £20 free spin haul requires £800 of slot turnover. Bonuses expire 7 days after credit. Wagering applies to bonus funds only, not deposit plus bonus, which is more generous than the industry's stricter interpretation.
Can I play Sun Bingo on mobile?
Yes. Sun Bingo runs through a mobile-optimised browser site compatible with iOS 15+ and Android 10+. There is no dedicated native app. Game loading times average 3–5 seconds on 4G connections. All bingo rooms, slots and account functions are available on mobile, including deposits, withdrawals and responsible gambling tools. Live chat is accessible through the mobile interface during staffed hours.
Does Sun Bingo offer a no-deposit bonus?
No. Sun Bingo's current welcome offer requires a minimum £10 deposit to activate. The 200% match up to £100 and 50 free spins both trigger on first qualifying deposit. Occasional no-deposit promotions appear through The Sun's print edition or email campaigns, typically £5 in bonus funds, but these are not a standing offer. Check the promotions page weekly for availability.
How does Sun Bingo's RTP compare with unlicensed sites?
Sun Bingo's lobby average sits at approximately 95.8%, verified by an approved test house and published per game under UKGC rules. Unlicensed sites self-declare RTP with no independent verification. Pragmatic Play, for example, offers operators configurable RTP settings ranging from 94.06% to 96.48% on the same title. On £10,000 of annual turnover, that 2.42% spread represents £242 in expected returns.
Responsible gambling: UK law requires you to be 18 or older to gamble. Sun Bingo verifies age at registration and before any withdrawal. If gambling is affecting your life, call the national helpline on 0808 8020 133 (GamCare, 24/7) or visit www.begambleaware.org. Self-exclude from all UK-licensed operators at www.gamstop.co.uk for 6 months, 1 year or 5 years. Set deposit limits before you play, not after.